This episode is our first on the classical Confucian philosopher Xunzi 荀子 (3rd century BCE), who was famous for arguing that human nature is bad and for casting doubt on the more supernatural or superstitious justifications for traditional Confucian rituals, among many other things. Since this is the first episode on an important philosopher, we spend some time in part I discussing his "big picture" philosophical worldview. In part II, we turn to the following question: does Xunzi think that the Confucian Way was something that sages discover or invent? A little reflection on this question shows that it has major implications for how we think about ethics and its foundations, and how much ethical values depend on human convention.

Many thanks to The Hong Kong Ethics Lab for sponsoring this podcast series.

Want to continue the discussion? Need links to some of the sources mentioned? Go to the support page for this episode on Warp, Weft, and Way.

We thank Lena Li (LI La 李拉 ) for her expert editing and sound engineering. We also thank the blog Warp, Weft & Way for hosting the discussion for this episode.

Want to skip to the episode's primary philosophical issue? Go to

15:00 Overview of Xunzi, or
30:23 Part II -- Is Xunzi's Way discovered or invented?

Co-hosts:
Richard Kim's website
Justin Tiwald's website

One influential justification for becoming Buddhist is to end suffering, starting (it seems) with the Buddhist practitioner's own suffering. Does this indicate that Buddhist practitioners are selfish? After Buddhism became popular in China, many Confucians argued that Buddhism puts personal salvation before ethics, and is thus selfish in that respect. Some Confucians also objected to the particular sort of compassion that Buddhists were supposed to adopt ("unconditioned compassion"), insisting that it was fundamentally incompatible with the special attachments needed for important human relationships between family members and close friends.

In our first show before a live audience, Justin presents two criticisms of Buddhism, Jenny Hung 洪真如 defends Buddhism against the criticisms, and Richard moderates. The show was held at a meeting of the American Philosophical Association, and many wiser scholars in the audience weighed in as well. Join us for the lively (and quite friendly) "debate."

Many thanks to The Hong Kong Ethics Lab and the Pacific Division of the American Philosophical Association for sponsoring this podcast series. Thanks also to Dana Jae Audio Collective (especially Casey Hudson and Maüxe Madden) for staging and recording the event, and to Lena Li (LI La 李拉 ) for her editing and mixing. They are consummate professionals.

Want to continue the discussion? Need links to some of the sources mentioned? Go to the support page for this episode on Warp, Weft, and Way.

Jenny Hung's website
Richard Kim's website
Justin Tiwald's website

Want to skip to episode's primary philosophical issue? Go to
- 4:19: preface to today's discussion, or
- 5:39: part II

Today's topic is really about two things. First, it's about the claim that many instantiations of one virtue necessarily come packaged with other virtues. For example, you can't have great humaneness or benevolence in your charitable giving to other people unless you also show a certain amount of ritual respect to them. Second, it's about the view that one virtue in particular -- the virtue of humaneness or good caring (ren 仁) -- is more central or fundamental than the others. The Neo-Confucian philosopher Zhu Xi (1130-1200) proposes that we can understand both the unity of virtues and the central importance of humaneness (ren) by thinking about the unity of the seasons and the central importance of the spring for the other seasons. We attempt to unpack these ideas (and some of the relevant seasonal associations) as they are presented by one of the Confucian tradition's most subtle and complicated philosophers.

Many thanks to The Hong Kong Ethics Lab for sponsoring this podcast series.

Want to continue the discussion? Need links to some of the sources mentioned? Go to the support page for this episode on Warp, Weft, and Way.

We thank Lena Li (LI La 李拉 ) for her expert editing and sound engineering. We also thank the blog Warp, Weft & Way for hosting the discussion for this episode.

Co-hosts:
Richard Kim's website
Justin Tiwald's website

Want to skip to the episode's primary philosophical issue? Go to
- 15:44: part II