The hunt for certainty is killing creativity.

Rory Sutherland, chairman of Ogilvy and the poet of persuasion, joins us live from Klaviyo London to challenge marketing's obsession with thin-tailed attribution. Brands are facing an existential crisis in an increasingly brandless, chat-interface powered world, but Sutherland believes that current measurement models are not designed to allow marketers to test, fail, learn, and grow, systematically destroying breakthrough potential.

• Technology evolves from option to obligation: Parking apps that liberated us from coin machines now trap those without smartphones, while McDonald's screen-only outlets eliminate human flexibility
• Marketing is fat-tailed, business is not thin-tailed: "10% of what you do delivers 130% of the value, but you don't know what the 10% is in advance." But marketing’s current measurement system is designed for us to fail. Attribution models punish necessary failures and do not credit long-term breakthroughs
• Interface changes redistribute power overnight: When fundamental interaction modes shift from typing to voice and stores to apps, established advantages can disappear instantly, creating opportunities for complete market disruption
• Brand value is multifarious, not monolithic: Fame, trust signals, and decision-making heuristics remain valuable even as chat interfaces challenge traditional brand expression. "People will come and find you rather than you having to find them." – Rory Sutherland
• [00:06:13] "Interface change is always disruptive, because if you change the interface within which people choose and act, you fundamentally change behavior." - Rory Sutherland
• [00:20:25] "There's a concern I always have about technology, which is the extent to which a lot of technology arrives as an option and ends up as an obligation." - Rory Sutherland
• [00:42:47] "There's a danger that what [AI is] doing is enshrining groupthink. It's taking groupthink and effectively engraving it." - Rory Sutherland

• Learn more about Ogilvy
• Check out Future Commerce on YouTube
• Check out Future Commerce+ for exclusive content and save on merch and print
• Subscribe to Insiders and The Senses to read more about what we are witnessing in the commerce world
• Listen to our other episodes of Future Commerce

Have any questions or comments about the show? Let us know on futurecommerce.com, or reach out to us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, or LinkedIn. We love hearing from our listeners!

A replay from VISIONS Summit: NYC featuring YouTuber and architect Dami Lee.

From the stage of VISIONS Summit at MoMA, Dami Lee reveals why the most chaotic spaces often teach us the most about what it means to be human.

As a licensed architect turned YouTube storyteller with over 200 million views, she's discovered that making architecture approachable isn't about simplifying complexity, it's about finding the human stories embedded in our built environment. Through her exploration of places like Kowloon Walled City, Dami demonstrates how the most profound spaces emerge not from master plans but from organic human adaptation, creating connections and meaning through what philosophers call "rhizomic growth."

• Human framing trumps technical perfection: No matter how many hours spent making content beautiful or technically accurate, none of it matters without taking time to make it human and frame architecture from a human angle.
• Personal investment drives authentic storytelling: Topics perform best when team members have genuine personal connections to the subject matter, leading to deeper research and more compelling narratives.
• Rhizomic processes create unexpected connections: Non-linear, seemingly inefficient creative processes allow for serendipitous discoveries and cross-categorical insights that wouldn't emerge through structured approaches.
• Extremes ignite curiosity: Audiences gravitate toward architectural stories that push boundaries—like the world's densest city—because extremes reveal fundamental truths about human behavior and adaptation.

• Check out Dami Lee on YouTube
• Check out Future Commerce on YouTube
• Check out Future Commerce+ for exclusive content and save on merch and print
• Subscribe to Insiders and The Senses to read more about what we are witnessing in the commerce world
• Listen to our other episodes of Future Commerce

Have any questions or comments about the show? Let us know on futurecommerce.com, or reach out to us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, or LinkedIn. We love hearing from our listeners!

Get ad-free episodes and bonus content, including the full recording of this podcast, by joining Future Commerce+ at futurecommerce.com/plus

• 🆕 Access to our newest analysis feature for members, Field Notes, our retail space analysis briefing. Featuring brands like Swatch, Printemps, and Skims.
• Access to our new Word of Mouth Index with Fairing, a brand new member benefit
• Save 15% on Future Commerce print journals and merch
• Exclusive invites to physical events, dinners, and priority invites to industry events (SXSW, Art Basel, VISIONS)
• Ad-free episodes and bonus content!